Recently, New York Times opinion columnist Ross Douthat moderated a debate on the Interesting Times podcast between Helen Andrews and Leah Libresco Sargeant, two conservative critics of modern feminism. The podcast received major blowback, starting with (but not ending with) the fact that the original headline of the conversation was “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?”

Quickly, after the predictable backlash hit, the headline was changed to “Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace?” But the diversion didn’t help the conversation’s case all that much. While the headline was softened to perhaps dress up the discussion as an urgent political issue, mostly, it felt like intellectualized sexism—a debate about women’s rights—when the real question should be “Wait, why are they up for debate anyway?”

If you could make it through the whole podcast, good on you. In truth, the question “Did women ruin the workplace?” felt like it was just waiting for Dolly Parton, Lily Tomlin, and Jane Fonda to burst through the office door and tie it to its desk chair.

All About “Wokeness”

Mainly, the debate revolved around wokeness. It started with Andrews, who recently wrote an article called “The Great Feminization” that criticizes women as being emotional and lacking logic. She started talking about “wokeness” at work and suggested that women are to blame for its presence in the office, noting that “the pathology in our institutions known as wokeness is distinctively feminine and feminized.”

Andrews continued: “And that, in a very literal sense, our institutions have gone woke because there are more women in them than there used to be.”

She also went on to talk about the uptick in sex scandals being reported, and how backward she finds it that we’re “suddenly” expected to “believe all women” regardless of how credible many of them surely cannot be. The very “boys club” argument seemed to suggest that women in the workplace are complaining about innocent flirtations, or about men just being men.

For Andrews, the platform felt like a continuation of her article. She also talked about female toxicity, which she explained means things like gossiping, being unable to “deal with conflict directly,” and a host of other dated stereotypes she claimed are female traits.

Sargeant pushed back on Andrews’ rhetoric several times, but she had her own troubling views about women in the workplace, too. Her take seemed to be more about the idea that no one should really expect total fulfillment at work, and if that’s the case, then women really shouldn’t bring their “woke feminism” ideas to work in the first place. “I think we make a mistake in seeing the workplace as the primary space we work out our cultural foibles,” Sergeant explained.

Predictable Outrage

The podcast did genuinely feel like it was better suited for an era when objectifying women at work was totally cool, there was a lack of DEI (another topic the guests railed into), and policies protecting women simply didn’t exist—rather than an era where many are pushing to obliterate women’s rights in the office (and everywhere). Of course, like the overt sexism in even posing the question “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?,” the response has been just as direct.

Almost instantly, the response pieces started circulating, critiquing not only the host of the podcast and its guests, but also The New York Times for running such a clearly anti-woman article that asked whether women ruined the workplace with all of their incessant needs—like being viewed as equal human beings and all. In a Vanity Fair response piece, journalist Kenneal Patterson pressed that such a question is ludicrous in today’s world, and showcases fear around “the encroachment of liberal feminism in the workplace.” Patterson suggests that women are essentially being coerced into standards of womanhood dictated “by the patriarchy.”

Patterson continued: “Women are losing the rights to their bodies, dignities, and beliefs every day. Starting an article with the headline “Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace?” does nothing more than appeal to those who try to keep lower-income women oppressed and drive young people into a tradwife future that keeps them caged.”

On X, the podcast is being slammed too. In a reshare of the article, X user and author Jess Davies wrote: “Dunno, I think the men who created hostile working environments through sexual harassment, sexist behaviors, unfair promotions, and being inconsiderate of basic needs like maternity, childcare, and women’s health ruined the workplace.

“But sure, it’s women’s fault for speaking up.”

For Whom did women ruin the workplace?

Surely, there may be a ton of people who do believe that women have ruined the workplace simply by being in it and demanding to be respected and treated fairly. So, a better question, perhaps, would be: Who did they ruin it for? Surely, not their employers, because in many regards, women are killing it at work.

While glaring pay gaps still exist, women are outpacing men in terms of education, hold an ever-rising share of high-paying occupations, and, according to recent findings, are often held to higher standards than men in CEO roles, too.

And while the tradwife trope may be preferred by men and certain groups of women, most modern women want to work. In fact, labor force participation has been rising for young women at the same time it’s been falling for young men. Women may have complicated the workplace for those who are worried about women getting ahead, who fear diversity, or who don’t want the boys club to change.

As far as ruining it goes, we’re still waiting for the case to be made.